On SanSan, age differences, and ship-shaming on tumblr in general...

[swiftsnowmane]

My thoughts on the last few years of observing and taking part in the SanSan fandom on tumblr, and on tumblr's approach to shipping in general....

For anyone not familiar, SanSan refers to the wonderful pairing of Sansa Stark and Sandor Clegane, as depicted in George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series. In recent times, the (*cough* terrible *cough*) tv-adaptation of this series has overtaken the books in many people's minds, but for the purposes of this post please note that I am referring mainly to the book version, as that is the only version of these characters that really matters to me and the only version I personally care about and enjoy. :)

Over the last several-odd years of being on tumblr, I've noticed post after post being made in response to the often vitriolic hate that is thrown this ship's way. These are often valiant attempts at defending our beloved SanSan from haters. In most cases, I commend lovers of the pairing for at least trying to stand up to those who feel the need to spew their hate at people who are, like any fans, just calmly gong about their business, shipping what they want to ship.....

....in whatever way they want to ship it.

This is the important part here, and one that all-too often seems to be forgotten. Some ships, especially those such as SanSan with a) large age differences, and b) young (in this case 'underage') female character being linked with older man, and c) somewhat uncertain and, at times, shifting power dynamics, come under frequent fire by other people in their respective fandoms.

In the case of SanSan, some people ship the pairing in a futuristic "Queen in the North" scenario with an older Sansa, where the seeming 'unhealthy' aspects will be (in their minds) if not 'erased', then at least be rendered more palatable. Other people ship the pairing as they are when first presented to us in the books, with the exception of sometimes aging up Sansa a tiny bit. Some people make no tweaks at all, and love the dynamic exactly as-is, and prefer to explore it that way in their fanfiction.

[Sidenote: some readers say that GRRM probably shouldn't have made the child characters quite so young at the start of the first book. I admit that I do tend to agree with this -- iirc, even GRRM *himself* admits that he fucked up in that regard. So, I tend to be ok with aging Sansa up a year or two in fics. In fact, I often age up each of the children in my mind while reading, as well. It has nothing to do with shipping, however, I just find some of the aspects of the story more believeable if they are slightly older -- especially with regard to Arya's storyline.]

We all have our personal preferences. The key here is to 'ship and let ship', and not judge people harshly if they are shipping a pairing you like (or dislike)  -- or even if they are doing so in a way that is distasteful to you.

Now, most people, when defending this pairing from outside hate, probably don't intend to come across as hurtful to their fellow shippers within the ship. But unfortunately, at times, this is the unintended result. While ship-shaming is expected from certain areas of any fandom, it can be very isolating to be inadvertently told by your fellow shippers that your preferences are somehow 'bad' or not shared by the 'majority'. In the case of SanSan, perhaps because so much of the hate is directed at the age-difference side of things (and the perceived power dynamic issues surrounding that) it leads to the defense of the ship trying almost overly hard to take the emphasis away from that side of it.

Except, um, for some us, the age difference is a HUGE part of the appeal. And we unapologetically feel that way.

On a personal tangent, I will just come out and say it: I can and do enjoy pairings without an age difference, but having one makes a romantic pairing even MORE appealing to me. :3

Now, I can only speak for myself here, but when I am getting into a ship, how seemingly 'problematic' or 'unhealthy' the relationship might be in a *realism* sense is not something I even take into consideration. It's usually doesn't even cross my mind. What I look for in my romantic pairings (other than the obvious older, hardened warrior with gentle, younger girl dynamic) is a lot of erotic visual symbolism, erotically-tinged dialogue and interaction, sexual tension (esp. if a tv or film pairing), a hint of menace and darkness, but also constantly shifting dominant/submissive dynamics (like, a big,strong man who starts out thinking he doesn't need anyone being brought either literally or metaphorically to his knees by a sweet innocent girl, but all the while retaining an animalistic quality andsexual dominance, etc), a Beauty and the Beast and/or Death and Maiden-esque feel, and so on.

For me, I am more concerned with the aesthetics, symbolism, sexual/romantic tension, and underlying meanings behind a pairing than with some arbitary social justice concept of what is 'problematic' or not. I mean, for fuck's sake, this is fiction. And I, for one, like my fiction to be rich and symbolic and interesting -- not to mention satisfying in terms of its storytelling and also on an intellectual, emotional, and personal level.

In other words, satisfying in a way that 'real life' is not and can never be.

*whispers*

Because, you know, it's fiction.

My point here is that what we ship in our fiction should not be seen in any way as some kind of moral reflection on us in our real life. It doesn't matter how distasteful someone's shipping preferes are to you, it still doesn't give you the right to shame them as a person for their preferences in what they choose to read or write. We also need to accept that sometimes the fiction we are reading does present us relationships or dynamics that in real life *would* be considere 'unhealthy' or whatever, but which we can still appreciate and enjoy within the realms of fiction.

Now, getting back to the ship in question....regardless of whatever perceived 'problem' the age difference between SanSan might present to some (and I respect the fact that this really might be distasteful to some people -- that's fine, they don't have to ship it, or they can age her up to whatever age is more palatable for themselves), the fact remains that if we are looking at the text itself here, in the first two books (in which, thus far, the entirety of Sansa and Sandor's direct interaction takes place), there are so many of these erotically-tinged  and symbolic moments between them that this cannot just be some kind of weird perverted shipper-goggles going on here, but is simply exactly what is happening in the undercurrent of the text.

There is no doubt that Sandor Clegane is directly a part (if not cause of) of Sansa's coming of age and sexual awakening. And Sansa is, likewise, directly a cause of his emotional awakening. In A Clash of Kings, for example, Sansa experiences her actual, literal menarche (her moonblood coming upon her) in Sandor's presence (right as he is pointing his sword against her!!!). I don't give a shit about her age here. 'Age' is hardly the point in such a situation. That moment, right there, means that Sansa becomes both literally and symbolically a 'woman' in Sandor's presence. And with the whole Beauty and the Beast dynamic between them and their time together (leading up to that fateful moment at the Blackwater), he becomes a 'man' in hers.

That is some powerful, erotic, visceral stuff, right there. And that's the sort of thing that I personally enjoy. The rest of the details that people seem to love arguing about so very much ad nauseum just don't matter to me at all in the face of THAT. If anything, these are a non-issues in terms of my own personal enjoyment of this pairing.

And this why I think it is unfortunate that some feel the need to proclaim that the SanSan fandom 'as a whole' only ships them romantically when Sansa is older, or when Sandor is 'gentled', blah blah blah. While I understand why people say this -- because maybe they may truly feel that way, or perhaps they are trying to defend the ship against outside hate and criticism -- it unfortunately ends up alienating a whole section of fans of this pairing who not only don't mind the age difference but who really, really enjoy their dynamic as it is presented in the earlier books.

Many SanSan fans, if truly honest with themselves, must surely recall something at least -- whether it is Sandor's threatening 'confession' in the dark on the tourney field, his harsh roughness in the face of her innocent defiance in the dark corridors of the Red Keep, or the unforgettable climactic moment between them in her bedchamber during the Blackwater (none of which would have the same impact if Sansa were substantially older at this point) -- that appealed to them on some level from the very start.

This aspect of the SanSan dynamic as it is depicted in the books, and during the King's Landing period, etc. cannot be ignored -- it is a part of the ship, whether people like it or not. Some people choose to see this aspect as a part of the ship that is 'in the past', and that is fine. But some people choose to focus on that aspect in their fanfiction, fan art, and personal interpretation of the pairing.....and that is fine, too.

Personally, I really do not care how or when or why each and every SanSan fan as an indvidual wants to see Sansa and Sandor actually get together. That doesn't matter to me (and is what fanfiction is for, really). People can feel whatever way they like about that side of it (aka, the sexual consummation). But to pretend that, as a SanSan fan, one "doesn't" or *shouldn't" or "musn't" find that earlier side to their story at least a *little* appealing, is (imo) being disingenuous at best.  ;)

Of course, all of what I'm saying here is just that: my own opinion. I cannot speak for everyone in this fandom who ships this pairing. Nor will I attempt to make public pronouncements on behalf of the fandom as a whole (one of the reasons I have posted this here on LJ instead of tumblr). I have made my mistakes early on in shipping this pairing -- especially in terms of judging others. I have many regrets and I cannot apologize enough for some of my past errors or offense or hurt I might have inadvertently caused. All I can say is that I have learned, over time, the great importance of 'ship and let ship'. :)

I can only hope that others will continue to be mindful of this as well. :)

It’s funny. Most of the SanSan hate that we as a fandom received PRE-tv show, was from dudebros on places like westeros.org who were Sandor-stans who just point-blank hated Sansa (for whatever stupid, sexist, dudebro reason) and didn't want to see Sandor linked with her because they felt somehow this threatened his badass-ness (never mind that Sandor links himself with her all the time, lol).

But then, when the GoT tv show came out, the age-gap between the actors portraying Sansa and Sandor was rather 'stark' (forgive the pun) -- about twice what it is even in the books. While this has never mattered to me personally -- because a) I am not disturbed by age difference whatsoever, and b) even if I were, I don’t actually give a crap about the show version of these characters -- it seems to have had the unfortunate side effect of making the outsider hate directed toward the ship even more vehemently focused on this perceived ‘unhealthy' aspect of it.

As noted above, the hate that SanSan gets since the tv show began airing seems markedly different than when it was just fans of the books hanging out on discussion forums. Back then, it really was mostly the 'reigning dudebros' who thought they had some prior claim on Sandor who were the most vocal and nasty naysayers about SanSan. This is partly why private, ‘ladies-only’ LJ comms were formed, because this prevented such (usually male) assholes from poking their noses in all the time and going “But Sandor is mah badass bro, go away Sansa, wahh.”

But then came the rise of tumblr, just around the same time SanSan became more widely known via the tv show. And now, the hate that the ship receives (on an almost constant, daily basis) seems to come more from 'social justice' types who think (and are determined to convince others) that the relationship is 'problematic', 'unhealthy',  blah, fucking, blahhh.

Now, the hate from the dudebros was nasty and annoying at times, but actually not that difficult to deal with, and was pretty easy to shrug off. Because it was just so stupid and so obviously invalid. But this kind of 'social justice warrior' hate is more insidious and harder to shake, and can really be alienating, because it's not just some sexist idiots who hate on female characters, but rather seemingly genuine ‘concerned fans’ full of righteous rage and indignation who are constantly trying to make you feel like a morally rotten person for shipping something (and shipping it in a certain way) that makes you very happy!!!

This is why I am NOT a fan of tumblr -- as a fandom space, that is. I deeply dislike the fact that it seems to be THE main fandom space online these days. I feel very strongly that fandoms (and their respective fans) deserve SAFE spaces online where they can do their fan-thang in peace. In private. Without harrassment. This is a 'right' of fandom, imo, and tumblr takes this away and makes people far more timid and scared of sharing what they love openly.

That's wrong. That is, imo, a true injustice. Not some fictional relationship that people perceive as offensive in some way and rail about online and try to shame other's for enjoying.

Sadly, it seems that people who were not involved in fandoms prior to tumblr don't even REALIZE that their 'rights' as fans are being violated in this manner, and they just put up with it!!!

Or worse, they sheepishly apologize and half-jokingly call themselves 'shipper trash' (a term I loathe with a fiery passion and will never, ever use, no matter how trendy it may be.)

In my humble opinion, this is a symptom of fandoms attempting to function in what is essentially a 'glass house'. There is little to no privacy on tumblr, to the point that people formulate their shipping terminology now in such a way that it is highly self-aware and self-deprecating. It’s almost as though they are constantly concerned about being seen as taking anything too seriously or too much to heart, because they know any second someone will come in and reprimand them for how morally inferior they are for enjoying whatever fictional thing (note the emphasis on fictional here) that makes them happy.

It is disheartening, to say the least. Places like LJ once provided such safe, private spaces for fandom communities to live and breathe and thrive in peace. But sadly it seems the days of LJ's prominence (as a fandom community space, at least) are past. I can only hope that perhaps, someday, another, more private platform for online fandom my arise and usurp tumblr's place --- or at least provide a safer alternative.

Until then, to those stuck with tumblr all I can say is: don't let the haters get you down, whether it be those criticizing your ship from outside your fandom....or those those ship-shaming you (or your preferred version of your ship) from within.

Comments

[maroucya.livejournal.com]

Yes I agree so much with everything you’ve said. Although I do enjoy some aspects of tumblr, I miss LJ, especially for the way discussions work over here. Funnily enough, while the community system keeps the unwanted out, it’s also more inclusive because the conversations are not split into tons of different posts like on tumblr where sometimes your input is lost forever.

Anyway, thank you for bringing up the ‘speaking in the fandom’s name’ problematic. It’s one that really annoys me and has for quite some time now. When people do it, I always feel left out given my own preferences – because it’s always the righteous who talk the loudest.

Myself, I like Sansa to be a teenager. Like I’m perfectly happy with her being 14 or so in the fics I read and I LOVE the power imbalance between her and Sandor. That power imbalance is a very important part of their interactions in canon, therefore it’s something I’m looking for in fanfiction as well. As for yourself, I also enjoy when it shifts (and it does in canon as well on a few occasions) yet I’m not a fan of the Queen in the North trope and Sansa being so bloody strong and in control that I don’t even recognise her anymore. And I love Sandor to remain the brutish jerk that I fell in love with when I first read the books! Yet, I realise this is my own preferences and I will never force anyone to agree with me. Still it’s SO frustrating to me when I read posts where the poster is like: ‘in the sansan fandom, we ALL ship them for later on, when Sansa will be much older and have agency and Sandor have quelled his rage so that they can have a healthy relationship’. Because it’s not true at all! I’m sorry but I DO exist – no matter that you disagree with me! - and I know for a fact that I’m not alone to ship as I do. So please, don’t try to erase us from the sansan fandom.

Anyway, thanks for this post! Really appreciated it! :D

ETA: Oh and I also agree so much on the social justice issue. Like, why should all ships be healthy? Please, choose your fight where they matter! Don’t try to save fictional characters - you're wasting your time because they are NOT REAL - and most of all, don’t shame people for enjoying reading about relationships you wouldn’t approve of in your RL. Fiction would be so boring if it was the same as the real world and so it's a good thing that the same rules don't apply IMO.

[swiftsnowmane]

Omg, first of all, sincerest apologies for taking so bloody long to reply to this!! Things got crazy this month.

But anyhoo.... I'm SO glad that this post resonated with you. I really needed to get all this off my chest. The atmosphere on tumblr can be overwhelming and oppressive at times, and I needed to vent in a space where my post wasn't going to be at the mercy of any old anon who decided to 'jump' on it and rip it to shreds. Or worse, make it go viral in the SanSan community on tumblr. That's not what I wrote this for. I just wanted to reach out to my friends who might be feeling similarly. If anyone else sees it too, then great, but I wrote it to speak those who, as you say, might be getting drowned out by the most vocal and most 'righteous' amongst the fandom. ;)

Of course, everybody *means* well, but as with anything one is passionate about, sometimes these things can be taken a bit to the extreme. Like a pendulum swinging too far the other direction, if you now what I mean.

As for your specific 'versions' of Sansa and Sandor....I love your versions and I love that you love them. :) I think it's great that you stick to your original preferences and to your own headcanons. :)

That said, I am personally not entirely adverse to the Queen in the North idea, but I like that scenario best if Sansa and Sandor still retain some hints (or outright aspects) of their earlier dynamic. Which *IS* totally possible, imo. After all, Sansa's storyline in the books has always hinted that someday she might become powerful politically (either as a queen or whatever), and that she'd be damn good at it. For Sandor to fit into this, I don't really think of it in the way that some people do, with them being married with a million kids and such. In my mind, it's always seemed the most likely scenario is that Sandor would act as some kind of guard or captain of her guards or something like that. For me, I find it very enticing to think that even if she *were* slightly older and more politically powerful, she'd still likely only be able to meet him in dark, secret places, similar to their corridor, stairway, godswood, rooftop, and bedchamber meetings in KL. And she would still be *physically* at his mercy -- he might even 'ambush' her at times like he did in KL in said secret places, only now he really would 'have her' like how he always wanted. ;)